I recently had the opportunity to chat with historical theologian and author Randal Rauser and Premier Christianity magazine editor Sam Hailes on the Premier Christian Radio program “Unbelievable?”
I think you’ll like this podcast. It is subscribed to by over 1 million listeners and gave me my best shot so far to talk directly to evangelicals worldwide about my views (and appeal, on their terms, for them to reconsider Trump, etc.). Please let me know what you think! Here’s what one listener just said online:
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29 Comments. Leave new
Thanks for posting. It was an interesting discussion, and I always enjoy listening to folks who may disagree on issues having a civil conversation. I also enjoy listening to British accents. It’s unfortunate how some religious folks justify supporting Trump by appealing to the tragic belief that bible God used bad kings to do good. Sheesh!
If religious beliefs were simply a matter of private personal beliefs that one kept to themselves, no problem. But when true believers believe that public policies should reflect the “will” of their non-existence “gods” then everyone is in big trouble whether or not one uses the term Evangelical to describe him/herself.
Hi joelyn, appreciate your comments. I agree, it was an interesting discussion.
As an Australian I don’t have the same emotional investment in Trump’s presidency. We have our own cultural cringes to deal with. Having said that, given America’s place on the world stage and, our nations relationship culturally, economically and so on, there’s no denying a certain sense of shared embarrassment over the whole affair. It must be awful to be a non-certain, thinking American at the moment.
However, I do wonder at times just how much is taken for granted in comments along the lines of yours regarding what we Aussies like to refer to as ‘god botherers’ and ‘the bloody government’.
A quick search on ‘separation of church and state’ rendered this top of first page Forbes article by Bill Flax titled ‘The True Meaning Of The Separation…’ . In it he talked about the history of the idea and how it came about. Sure, it’s his take and I gather from his tone and a cursory glance at his other articles he’s at least culturally Christian and conservative. Nevertheless, living in a country that has never really separated from London, I found it an interesting read.
Without putting words in your mouth joelyn or assuming too much I hope, I wonder if I might paraphrase (read, misquote) you –
“If non-belief was simply a matter of private personal belief that one kept to oneself, no problem. But when true nonbelievers believe that public policies should reflect the “will” of their “beliefs” then everyone is in big trouble whether or not one uses the term Atheist to describe him/herself”
See what I did there?
My problem is not theism vs atheism per say. It’s the “state = secular atheism good” as well as “state = evangelicalism good”. That’s my concern. “State” should reflect people should it not? All creeds and colours, sans “isms”
And yes, evangelicalism needs to pull its head in. Of course. In fact, it really needs to stop. But not at the expense of people’s individual convictions. Which I believe and understand evangelicalism is guilty of. The problem (one of the many) with evangelicalism is it assumes America and eventually the world should be and will be transformed into one giant bible study. One of their own making, after their own image I might add.
Hi Shishe.
Thank you for your comments. I understand what you are trying to say, but let me clarify my statement.
First, there is a false equivalence between religious believers wanting public policies such as prohibiting same-sex marriages, or reproductive rights, etc. to reflect their theology and non-believers wanting the state to grant all citizens equal protection under the law. This has nothing to do with as you put it, = secular atheism good”. Secular doesn’t automatically mean atheism.
Definition of Secular: denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis.
The state is secular, and while religious believers are entitled under the law to hold religious beliefs like creationism or intelligent design, the separation of Church and State prevents these long-debunked religious superstitions from being taught as facts in public school.
The secular state also protects (or it should) all citizens and will intervene when religious practices harm like in New York State when several newborns got herpes from rabbis sucking off the blood from their newly circumcised penises.
Likewise, the secular state will prevent religious parents from denying lifesaving medical treatment (e.g., blood transfusions, etc.) to minors
Should religious believers have a say in their government? Yes, but their religious liberty stops at my secular nose. Pray and have at it. I don’t care. But I do care when someone is silly enough to believe some un-evidenced deity appointed a spoke person to speak on its behalf and worse that I must conform to this deity’s commands.
So no, the government can’t reflect everyone’s beliefs because not all beliefs are equal. And there is a huge difference between believing something based on divine revelation (e.g, Bible, Koran, etc.) and accepting empirical evidence based on scientific investigation (e.g., evolution). Secular governments are not perfect, but they beat theocracies any day. All the best. Cheers.
Thank you joelyn you make a number of great points there. Your explanation of secular is what it is and stands.
Yes, the “state” is in place to govern the religious and also the non-religious. Simplistic explanations of the world we see and experience around us (be they long held or short term) should be challenged and a gauntlet of ongoing, nuanced conversation thrown down. Much like the one I’m enjoying with you here.
The arbitrary nature of secular governance is fraught with peril and just how reflective of the public square it is or should be, is constantly up for debate I guess. Your nations famous “checks and balances” come to mind here. If you could see our parliamentarians in Canberra go at it, gees, you don’t know whether to laugh or cry but take a step or two back and you begin to realise its a good thing. Thats why I commend Frank’s public admonition of evangelicalism. It needs to be critiqued in the agora. Called out. Exposed.
The nature of secularism is that it in part, “pertains to a generation or age” and as such shifts and moves with the times. It is however always subject to having been sown by a previous generation. Ironically, it is always too early to tell the condition our secular state is currently in.
Pure science at the end of the day, as I understand it, is not subject to belief. There’s no scale. It either is or isn’t (firm grasp on the obvious there). But I don’t live my life scientifically and technocracy scares the shit out of me, which is to say, without wanting to invoke the spectre of the Bush era consider this meme – “because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don’t know we don’t know.” Sorry.
I don’t experience reality empirically, therefore the less the bloody government, theory posing as knowledge and therefore power or those fcuking god bothering evangelicals for that matter have to say about it with their special brand of “certainty” (which btw a lot of atheists share) the better.
I’m trying to live my life moving in a direction toward greater goodness and beauty. Is it too much to expect my elected representatives and the society I find myself in to reflect and allow for this ambiguous notion?
Maybe in time the West and the American experiment will determine this. I’m going with “no”.
I appreciated your considered response joelyn, once again thank you.
Go well
Professors Fatma Marouf and Bryn Esplin, a married couple, is also trying to live their lives moving in a direction toward greater goodness and beauty. Is it too much to expect their elected representatives and the society they find themselves in to reflect and allow for this?
“Two Texas women are suing the Trump administration after the couple say they were told they could not foster a refugee child because they don’t “mirror the Holy Family.”
Fatma Marouf and Bryn Esplin, both professors at Texas A&M University, said they were turned away by Catholic Charities Fort Worth after they expressed interest in applying to be foster parents to a refugee child. Catholic Charities, which has multiple regional offices, is the only organization in Texas that works with the federal government to resettle unaccompanied refugee children here.”
All citizens are should be treated equally under the law regardless of what some religious tract may say.
Cheers.
” I don’t experience reality empirically ”
Which is to say … you believe everything and anything put before you that tickles your fancy or agrees with your biases and agendas completely devoid of any concrete verifiable or substantial test for truth … which makes you ..
either a Child
or an abject Fool ..
Your choice
Suffice to say… Suffice to say… Suffice to say… Suffice to say… Suffice to say… Suffice to say… Suffice to say… Suffice to say… Suffice to say… Suffice to say… Suffice to say… Suffice to say… Suffice to say… Suffice to say… Suffice to say… TJ can’t handle intelligent dialogue and exchange of ideas. Because… Only “HE” knows everything, and everyone who doesn’t believe in “his” version of the Bible is wrong! Just another bible-thumper of a different variety.
Suffice it to say little lady your definitions of secular and religious as well as the limitations and restrictions of both in a ‘ PLURALISTIC ‘ society ( which is what in principal the US is) .. are uninformed , vapid … more than somewhat immature as well as being based solely on your personal opinions agendas and biases which as an individual attempting to define the truth and fact of the matter has no relevance what so ever
Suffice it to say before you attempt to engage in such conversations and debates any further a whole lotta education research and reading on your part is extremely necessary
Because little lady … in reality .. you don’t know what the ___ you’re blathering on about in your current state of volitional ignorance
e.g. Time to shed the child within and address the young woman I assume you to be , Cause ahh … by not doing so … you make yourself look like a fool
I don’t quite understand.
Are you and Frank atheists?
Frank is “shadow banning” for those who have not caught on.
“Frank is “shadow banning” for those who have not caught on.”
So what? It’s his blog. LOL! There were trolls who were flamming the blog. Frank has the right to decide who comments and who doesn’t.
Shadow banning is not ethical . Period 1
Jefferson would be turning over In his grave!
“Big-time negotiators, false healers and woman haters,
Masters of the bluff and masters of the proposition
But the enemy I see wears a cloak of decency,
All non-believers and men stealers talkin’ in the name of religion
And there’s a slow, slow train comin’ up around the bend”
Bob Dylan
These evangelicals are wingnuts just a smoother version!
Could not get through it!
N
Evangelicals are always closing as saved or lost is some how you’re falt!
Watch this great film clip with Alec Baldwin on sales…
ALways be closing:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4PE2hSqVnk
N
I would not click any link given by any of these posters.
But do so at your own risk if you insist.
Actually, evangelical Christian’s are like Amway salesmen as they are basically predatory as every person they come in contact with is a prospect for conversion!
The “true” believes are always trying to reform themselves and every one around them as for them life’s only purpose is to bring new recruits into the church as one must always be closing the sale!
I for one shall never return to such a life style as the freedom is simply wonderful!
Just an opinion.
Nine
Exactly right, Nine. I know they do nice things like give out water and supplies after natural disasters but there’s always a hook. Everything is designed to put a$$es in the pews and dollars in the baskets. All those good deeds are designed to bring ‘em in. A B C. Always Be Closing. Great metaphor.
Yes, they are like slick salesmen with an agenda. I hate it when they ask, usually after a brief period of fake-friendly sweet talk, the question I so dread-“ARRRE YUHH SAYUVVVED?” Even if you answer back yes, it’s never a good enough answer. Then they give you the 3rd degree about when, where, how old you were, and whether you had the proper baptismal method to try to prove you wrong and that you need to buy their brand of Jesus. And like any sleazy, crooked pyramid-scheme salesman, you usually end up with a lemon.
And they usually end up with most of your money in their pocket.
If you look around it really is astonishing how many churches there are. It’s long been a human need to abdicate ones power in favor of a god who is in control of everything. I think these young kids coming up with all this advanced technology at their fingertips and the internet available on their smartphones are going to end up rejecting organized religion in large numbers. I think that the religious people sense that and it causes them to be more pushy and desperate.
Yes, that is why they are desperate. They are losing control because this new generation(at least most of them) are exercising their critical thinking skills and are not all blind followers.
Here… here… Nine, Tara, and Stacey. Good to see that you are still posting…
“All that foreign oil controlling American soil,
Look around you, it’s just bound to make you embarrassed.
Sheiks walkin’ around like kings, wearing fancy jewels and nose rings,
Deciding America’s future from Amsterdam and to Paris
And there’s a slow, slow train comin’ up around the bend.”
Bob Dylan
And our dear evangelicals simply can not see what Trump really is as he has no shame bowing to his Saudi Masters and selling them weapons!
Dylan wrote that in ’79 as he saw then what they really are and he got out and so Dylan is our guide out using Poetry and art.
Just an opinion of course…
Nine
It’s amazing all the songs from long ago turned out to be so prophetic.
First off young lady … the 60’s wasn’t all that long ago
Secondly … part of the reason our words are so prophetic is because we READ … the classics … poetry … novels … philosophy etc …. unlike this present generation the majority of which for whom Harry Potter is considered great literature , social media is considered to be reading .. and Fifty Shades of Grey is somehow philosophical
Third is the simple fact that in the 60’s early 70’s we were focused on the ART .. and the meaning of our music and lyrics … rather than the chasing of the star making machine
“The number of Texans receiving federal food assistance — commonly known as food stamps — has increased by nearly 1.4 million in the last four years. Nearly 15 percent of Texans now receive food stamps, and many more than that are eligible. ”
https://www.texastribune.org/library/data/texas-supplemental-nutrition-assistance-program/
Many in Texas the “Red ” capitol of America is all for cutting SNAP as how effin stupid can one be?
And I blame the evangelicals for the brain washing of our dear American Brothers and sisters and what more can constitute a domestic threat to America?
I assure you there will come a time when these folks will have to be dealt with the first step would be to disarm them.
Just an opinion
Nine
As to Texas I say let them secede from the Union but of course when they do we shall remove the DOD employees and close the massive military bases as Texas is a Federal welfare economy when you examine the economic facts as all Red states are net importers of Federal dollars and so the ignorant and heavily armed are allowed to vote and keep this going.
Well, maybe Frank Shaeffer can come up with an answer to this as I am going to relax and go for a hike…..
Nine
Nine … to add credence to your claims … Texas .. despite all its oil and minerals .. despite all its conspicuous consumption wealth .. despite all its Red leanings ..despite the fact that they can’t pay their teachers … nor their bills …. and despite all the anti subsidies / entitlement rhetoric and bs coming out of the state …
.. is the most heavily tax payer subsidized welfare state in these United States … followed closely by Utah .. WY .. MT … South and North Dakota .. etc etc etc
Seriously Nine … y’all gotta feel sorry for the good folks living in Austin … having to put up with the rest of Texasses ( spelling intentional ) bs as they do .
Hmmm .. maybe ACL should consider moving … to say … err .. Colorado perhaps .. before its too late
😎
What I find thoroughly disconcerting as well as disturbing is the fact that in every comment on this page everyone’s coming forth with his/her opinions on this or that ..
.. whilst completely ignoring what I feel is the IMPORTANT question presented by Frank & Co
That being … is it time to ditch the label of Evangelical ?
The answer being .. if one is a genuine Bible believing Christian willing to accept and deal with the multitudes of paradox within the Bible as well as dealing with the fact that this United States of America is and was intended to be since its inception … a pluralistic .. not a faith based society ..
… and if one is willing to accept the blatant heretical cult that all Christian denominations have become over the decades in their quest for power versus the Truth ..
… then the only obvious answer is …
Hell Yeah … and its about damn time !!!! . Fact is I dumped the label a good 12 years ago .. despite maintaining and in fact strengthening my faith