How can the Democrats talk about morals and meaning when they believe that they are the result of purposeless, meaningless evolution which offers no foundation for morals and meaning?
Process theology provides a way to understand how God is involved in promoting a better world without having to think truth was fully defined 2000 years ago.
Dear Gary, I see a great foundation for morals and meaning while being the result of evolution. You have made a some seriously false assumptions when you say evolution is purposeless and meaningless. As well as assuming that all democrats must be non-believers. The fact that we may not the result of intelligent design of a higher being gives me great responsibility and wonderment, that I am the best being that nature and science can currently produce! My human soul and conscience makes me a compassionate being who decides moral choices on a daily basis. Presently I feel a duty to do all I can to fight this bigoted, amoral, illegitimate president. Do you not also feel such an obligation, morally?
How you can you say that a proven fact is not a proven fact, but rather purposeless and meaningless? Speak for yourself. I don’t need to be I’ve in fairy tale stories, in order for there to be purpose and meaning in my life. Sorry for you though…..
Why do you say this? There are Christians in the Democratic Party, and their are atheists in the Republican Party. The Republicans aren’t all religious you know, many of them are nothing more than Ayn Rand devotees.
As a Democrat I can tell you that I do not believe in “purposeless, meaningless evolution” but I do think God is big enough to accomplish life on the earth any way at all. And THAT belief most certainly does offer morality and meaning. What I think is a crime is the willful ignorance that allows denial of all the magnificent advancement allowed the human species—whose members that adhere to certain religious cults seem to reject the accumulation of all knowledge as an insult to a god so small it will not tolerate its creatures “evolving” and learning.
Lookin’ ’round . . . it’s kinda dead in here . . . ain’t it, Frank? I think you finally done it, Pal . . . you finally succeeded in pissin’ off everybody . . . left, right and middle too. Well . . . “Congratulations!” I guess.
It appears that some believe all Democrats do not believe in God, the teachings of Christ and morality; that would be a very wrong assumption. While Frank can do a much better job of quoting scripture, the words of Christ tell us that love of money is wrong; that Christians are to be “fishers of men,” but no where does He say that it be done through passing legislation. In fact, His instructions are a very separate distinction between “Caesar” and God. We are also told to care for those in need – the widow, children, the ill or disabled, the hungry. Christ taught humility as well as focusing on God, not on things of earthly value. We are told not to “hurt the earth, the sea or the trees…” in Revelation 7:3, yet there is harm done by clear cutting forests, fracking, waste in the sea, and the list goes on. Like Frank, but not to the degree he experienced, I was raised in an evangelical church. I found that hypocrisy flourished; ministers and their faithful twisted the words of the Bible to fit agendas. As one wise man said, “Just because they can read doesn’t mean they understand.”
You paint a very bleak view of the US voters – however given the current president perhaps it is accurate. I would like to think that the US is smarter than that. Time will tell.
There was a report yesterday about the millennials and their a) disagreement with a capitalistic economic situation, and b) their enthusiasm for Bernie Sanders. My granddaughter is one of this group. She and most of her friends have abandoned organized religion like the plague, having seen clearly the hypocrisy and fraud rampant in it—they see the lack of altruism, the selfishness, the worship of wealth, and the prejudice and misogyny of it. I find this very encouraging. They are talking about it. They see it very clearly and evaluate it with accuracy. AND they are having children they want to see have a chance for good lives—if any of us get the chance to vote again after these rightwing destroyers have been in Washington for however long they can last, these millennials will be engaged. I think they’ll have a say about candidates and platforms. And I think they can challenge the numbers of all the Talevangelicals. Either the Democrat Party will get the message or these young people will mold it to their values–and many talk of forming a completely new party (which I think is a mistake). I’ve had long conversations with some of these people. I’m an over-the-hill geezer by now, and their ideas aren’t mine, but I tell them: “This is YOUR time. Make it right! Show me you’ve got something worthwhile and I’ll support it!” I’m not sure we will ever have a free election in this country again, thanks to these theocracy destroyers of the democratic republic won in 1776. I’m nowhere near certain the government can hold together under the hostile assault of the rabid right and its Talevangelical destroyers. But if everything can hold together and if we can have a free election, these young people, I think, are going to make themselves heard and they DO value family and decency; they want everyone to have medical care, they want everyone, even the rich so worshipped by the Right that they are bowed to and granted subsidies that devastate the rest of us–=the young people want them to pay taxes. They want women to be valued as human beings instead of evaluated by numbers indicating their sex appeal. They accept science, fact, and truth. They honor family. And they want the kind of “religion” they see today to wither on its dying vine and let people have some sanity and peace.
I love what you are saying about these millennials. It gives me hope for this country. It’s sad that the wonderful idea of our democracy, dreamed of and forged by our very wise forefathers, is in deep trouble with the current administration and politics as a whole.
That’s great stuff, Frank, especially the last two minutes or so. But I wonder if the lines might not better be drawn slightly differently from how you draw them. You say that the D party appeals merely to the aspiration to economic success while people whose political preferences center on questions of meaning are drawn to the likes of Trump and Pence. But isn’t it equally a division between two different sorts of economic aspiration? I think you are right that the D party’s message has become pretty much “Go to college and join the professional class!” thus offering nothing to those who are not interested in going to college or moving up to the professional class. (See Thomas Frank’s indictment of the D party in his recent book *Listen, Liberal!*) But Trump seems to have had a great success with such people even while offering precious little in the way of an appeal to meaning–at least, a positive appeal (certainly he has made a strong appeal to fear and resentment). So I think that the failure of the D party is not due to a reliance on economic aspiration but to a misdirected appeal to a particular (and narrow) *kind* of economic aspiration.
Regarding Christianity–actions speak louder than words ! Hitler professed to be a Christian and look at the horrors for which he was responsible.
Civilization has thus far survived in spite of Christianity and not because of it. Power and the need to control others is the thread that continues to drive the Christian Right. Something in Christianity has turned many American Christians into mean spirited bigots. They spew the language of warfare against non-Christians and have been arming themselves in preparation for conflict. It’s mass psychoses that has gone untreated and an entire generation of Americans have come to believe this is normal. This isn’t normal.
There’s a reason for this and it’s called “hypnosis”. The church format is conducive to creating a hypnotic effect on the audience. In the process, having some authority figure serve up the “facts” used to adopt beliefs is a process that is comfortable and familiar to this group that comprises a significant portion of Trump’s base. His talents play right into that base. They are used to getting their guidance from someone on a stage. Trump has perfected his delivery and art for hype (aka lies and deception) for decades, going back to the 70’s and even his childhood. Facts about his background and all of that would be of no interest to his base (aka his congregation), and they would certainly not bother to spend the effort to go dig them out because they get told all they need to know from his sermons — and the preaching of his information arm, Fox News.
Frank, it seems like you are implying that Mike Pence is fraudulent. Am I understanding you correctly? How is he fraudulent? I would think that you don’t consider someone fraudulent simply for disagreeing with your politics. Charging someone with fraud is a serious charge. I’m not saying that Pence is or isn’t fraudulent, but I do know that disagreement with you does not constitute fraud.
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How can the Democrats talk about morals and meaning when they believe that they are the result of purposeless, meaningless evolution which offers no foundation for morals and meaning?
Process theology provides a way to understand how God is involved in promoting a better world without having to think truth was fully defined 2000 years ago.
No, it doesn’t.
Dear Gary, I see a great foundation for morals and meaning while being the result of evolution. You have made a some seriously false assumptions when you say evolution is purposeless and meaningless. As well as assuming that all democrats must be non-believers. The fact that we may not the result of intelligent design of a higher being gives me great responsibility and wonderment, that I am the best being that nature and science can currently produce! My human soul and conscience makes me a compassionate being who decides moral choices on a daily basis. Presently I feel a duty to do all I can to fight this bigoted, amoral, illegitimate president. Do you not also feel such an obligation, morally?
Please educate yourself regarding the dangers of declaring oneself morally superior because of your own religious beliefs.
Morality only exists if God exists to define what it is. If we are the product of chance, then morality is just an opinion. And opinions vary.
How you can you say that a proven fact is not a proven fact, but rather purposeless and meaningless? Speak for yourself. I don’t need to be
I’ve in fairy tale stories, in order for there to be purpose and meaning in my life. Sorry for you though…..
Why do you say this? There are Christians in the Democratic Party, and their are atheists in the Republican Party. The Republicans aren’t all religious you know, many of them are nothing more than Ayn Rand devotees.
V. Mary, I agree with what you say about Republicans.
As a Democrat I can tell you that I do not believe in “purposeless, meaningless evolution” but I do think God is big enough to accomplish life on the earth any way at all. And THAT belief most certainly does offer morality and meaning. What I think is a crime is the willful ignorance that allows denial of all the magnificent advancement allowed the human species—whose members that adhere to certain religious cults seem to reject the accumulation of all knowledge as an insult to a god so small it will not tolerate its creatures “evolving” and learning.
Which “certain religious cults” do you mean?
A Majority or a very large percent of democrats are Christians . To call them all evolutionary atheists is ludicrous.
Lookin’ ’round . . . it’s kinda dead in here . . . ain’t it, Frank?
I think you finally done it, Pal . . . you finally succeeded in pissin’ off everybody . . . left, right and middle too. Well . . . “Congratulations!” I guess.
Whoops!
My mistake, Frank. Seems “Congratulations!” was a tad premature. 😎
It appears that some believe all Democrats do not believe in God, the teachings of Christ and morality; that would be a very wrong assumption. While Frank can do a much better job of quoting scripture, the words of Christ tell us that love of money is wrong; that Christians are to be “fishers of men,” but no where does He say that it be done through passing legislation. In fact, His instructions are a very separate distinction between “Caesar” and God. We are also told to care for those in need – the widow, children, the ill or disabled, the hungry. Christ taught humility as well as focusing on God, not on things of earthly value. We are told not to “hurt the earth, the sea or the trees…” in Revelation 7:3, yet there is harm done by clear cutting forests, fracking, waste in the sea, and the list goes on.
Like Frank, but not to the degree he experienced, I was raised in an evangelical church. I found that hypocrisy flourished; ministers and their faithful twisted the words of the Bible to fit agendas. As one wise man said, “Just because they can read doesn’t mean they understand.”
You paint a very bleak view of the US voters – however given the current president perhaps it is accurate. I would like to think that the US is smarter than that. Time will tell.
I hope you are wrong, but I doubt it.
There was a report yesterday about the millennials and their a) disagreement with a capitalistic economic situation, and b) their enthusiasm for Bernie Sanders. My granddaughter is one of this group. She and most of her friends have abandoned organized religion like the plague, having seen clearly the hypocrisy and fraud rampant in it—they see the lack of altruism, the selfishness, the worship of wealth, and the prejudice and misogyny of it.
I find this very encouraging. They are talking about it. They see it very clearly and evaluate it with accuracy. AND they are having children they want to see have a chance for good lives—if any of us get the chance to vote again after these rightwing destroyers have been in Washington for however long they can last, these millennials will be engaged. I think they’ll have a say about candidates and platforms. And I think they can challenge the numbers of all the Talevangelicals. Either the Democrat Party will get the message or these young people will mold it to their values–and many talk of forming a completely new party (which I think is a mistake). I’ve had long conversations with some of these people. I’m an over-the-hill geezer by now, and their ideas aren’t mine, but I tell them: “This is YOUR time. Make it right! Show me you’ve got something worthwhile and I’ll support it!”
I’m not sure we will ever have a free election in this country again, thanks to these theocracy destroyers of the democratic republic won in 1776. I’m nowhere near certain the government can hold together under the hostile assault of the rabid right and its Talevangelical destroyers. But if everything can hold together and if we can have a free election, these young people, I think, are going to make themselves heard and they DO value family and decency; they want everyone to have medical care, they want everyone, even the rich so worshipped by the Right that they are bowed to and granted subsidies that devastate the rest of us–=the young people want them to pay taxes. They want women to be valued as human beings instead of evaluated by numbers indicating their sex appeal. They accept science, fact, and truth. They honor family. And they want the kind of “religion” they see today to wither on its dying vine and let people have some sanity and peace.
Beautifully said. ♡
How could we tell if there was a theocracy here?
I love what you are saying about these millennials. It gives me hope for this country. It’s sad that the wonderful idea of our democracy, dreamed of and forged by our very wise forefathers, is in deep trouble with the current administration and politics as a whole.
That’s great stuff, Frank, especially the last two minutes or so. But I wonder if the lines might not better be drawn slightly differently from how you draw them. You say that the D party appeals merely to the aspiration to economic success while people whose political preferences center on questions of meaning are drawn to the likes of Trump and Pence. But isn’t it equally a division between two different sorts of economic aspiration? I think you are right that the D party’s message has become pretty much “Go to college and join the professional class!” thus offering nothing to those who are not interested in going to college or moving up to the professional class. (See Thomas Frank’s indictment of the D party in his recent book *Listen, Liberal!*) But Trump seems to have had a great success with such people even while offering precious little in the way of an appeal to meaning–at least, a positive appeal (certainly he has made a strong appeal to fear and resentment). So I think that the failure of the D party is not due to a reliance on economic aspiration but to a misdirected appeal to a particular (and narrow) *kind* of economic aspiration.
Regarding Christianity–actions speak louder than words ! Hitler professed to be a Christian and look at the horrors for which he was responsible.
Civilization has thus far survived in spite of Christianity and not because of it. Power and the need to control others is the thread that continues to drive the Christian Right. Something in Christianity has turned many American Christians into mean spirited bigots. They spew the language of warfare against non-Christians and have been arming themselves in preparation for conflict. It’s mass psychoses that has gone untreated and an entire generation of Americans have come to believe this is normal. This isn’t normal.
There’s a reason for this and it’s called “hypnosis”. The church format is conducive to creating a hypnotic effect on the audience. In the process, having some authority figure serve up the “facts” used to adopt beliefs is a process that is comfortable and familiar to this group that comprises a significant portion of Trump’s base. His talents play right into that base. They are used to getting their guidance from someone on a stage. Trump has perfected his delivery and art for hype (aka lies and deception) for decades, going back to the 70’s and even his childhood. Facts about his background and all of that would be of no interest to his base (aka his congregation), and they would certainly not bother to spend the effort to go dig them out because they get told all they need to know from his sermons — and the preaching of his information arm, Fox News.
As long as the Democratic party defends legalized murder of the unborn in the name of choice, they will never be the party of the moral high ground.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0Wwgh7kdKM
Frank, it seems like you are implying that Mike Pence is fraudulent. Am I understanding you correctly? How is he fraudulent? I would think that you don’t consider someone fraudulent simply for disagreeing with your politics. Charging someone with fraud is a serious charge. I’m not saying that Pence is or isn’t fraudulent, but I do know that disagreement with you does not constitute fraud.